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[JJMelzer]

Welcome back to another episode of UNLEASHED! Sponsored by Permuted Press.

It’s a jam packed episode this month! I talk about some news that hit the podcast fiction world pretty hard recently, as author J.C. Hutchins has decided not to give away his work for free anymore. I agree with everything he said on his website. This is something that has been weighing heavy on my mind ever since I read Amanda Palmer’s blog post.

Corey Graham joins us for his first ever segment on UNLEASHED, as he reviews the classic horror flick, Candyman!

This months interview is with Peter Clines, who is the author of the brand new book from Permuted Press, EX-HEROES. It’s a great read, and Peter and I sat down for an hour to talk about the book, his more than 15 years spent in the movie business, and his gig as a writer for Creative Screen Writing Magazine.

PROMO – Beneath by Jeremy Robinson, found on Podiobooks.com

http://jamesmelzer.net/2010/02/unleashed-ep-12-peter-clines/

[Permuted Press]

Listening now.   

[Permuted Press]

Melz, you know much more about podcast novels than I do... why can't successful podcast novelists monetize with advertising embedded into the podcasts?  Couldn't someone like you (or Hutchins, etc.) take the numbers from the first podcast novel releases sans ads and use that to pitch to a podcast advertising agency to place ads in the next podcast novel?  Or even take it down a notch and don't go with pro advertising... just do, say, 3 ads per podcast at $35 a pop and sell the ads individually yourself (to other podcasts, small presses, whatnot).  That'd be $2700+ for something similar to Escape.  Not enough to live on, but but a lot better than nothing!

[JJMelzer]

Melz, you know much more about podcast novels than I do... why can't successful podcast novelists monetize with advertising embedded into the podcasts?  Couldn't someone like you (or Hutchins, etc.) take the numbers from the first podcast novel releases sans ads and use that to pitch to a podcast advertising agency to place ads in the next podcast novel?  Or even take it down a notch and don't go with pro advertising... just do, say, 3 ads per podcast at $35 a pop and sell the ads individually yourself (to other podcasts, small presses, whatnot).  That'd be $2700+ for something similar to Escape.  Not enough to live on, but but a lot better than nothing!

They could, but that brings up the whole debate of advertising in podcasts. Many have tried, and few have succeeded, because people just don't want to listen to ads, and the creator ends up losing listeners in the long run because of it. The 'podcast fiction' community is very hellbent on NO ADS in their fiction. When I insert an AD or promo, in the middle of UNLEASHED before the interviews, that's called 'sharing promos.' In other words, helping someone else in the community out by giving them exposure, hoping for an exhange in return. Everyone knows this and that's accepted. What is not accepted is a commercial as we know it, selling you something else for money. It's all messed up, but that's the norm.

I think Hutch quit for now, not because he was hoping to make money off the podcasts, but because the effort he was pouring into it was not seeing a ROI. Meaning he spent all this time and effort giving his work away for free, knowing that eventually he'd get a book deal, and when he finally got one, all that time and effort he spent didn't pay off, so now it's time to move on and try different things that will bring him a steady income.

You sponsor UNLEASHED but let me advertise it in my own, cool, way. Lots of advertisers wouldn't do that, and again, most of the listening audience doesn't want to hear it. It's a catch-22. How to make money without pissing off the people? So far, it has yet to be done consistently.

[Permuted Press]

Has anyone "big" tried selling ads in a podcast novel?  Like Hutch level big?  For a long time Leo Laporte made the same sort of argument against ads in his podcasts but now he has them (sort of the talking ads like you do in Unleashed) and he is, literally, getting filthy rich.  Maybe it's just time for someone with a big enough following to break the mold and do it...  if you have a large following of genuine fans (like Hutch) and it's either get a podcast novel free with ads or not get one at all, which are they going to pick?

[HOO-HAA]

Nothing to do with literature, but radio show Free Talk Live (www.freetalklive.com) make their money by selling ads on their podcast shows. One of the DJs doubles up as a marketing guy.

It's a different audience, of course, but there's a similar principle at play - listeners tend to complain if the ads are for products which they feel are opposed to the show's ethos.

[JJMelzer]

Has anyone "big" tried selling ads in a podcast novel?  Like Hutch level big?  For a long time Leo Laporte made the same sort of argument against ads in his podcasts but now he has them (sort of the talking ads like you do in Unleashed) and he is, literally, getting filthy rich.  Maybe it's just time for someone with a big enough following to break the mold and do it...  if you have a large following of genuine fans (like Hutch) and it's either get a podcast novel free with ads or not get one at all, which are they going to pick?

I'm not sure if someone like Hutch or Sigler has tried it before. I know they've tooled around with the idea, but ultimately decided against it based on the feedback of the listeners.

Who knows, maybe someone one day will try it and break the mold. Maybe me? I don't know. I'm open to trying anything though.

You said something interesting there though, "large following of genuine fans." It's hard to tell what's genuine these days, and Hutch is a perfect example now. More than 5,000,000 downloads of his podcasts, more than 8,000 followers on Twitter and a ton of facebook fans, yet he still couldn't sell enough books from those people to satisfy St. Martin's Press into picking up his sequels.

Shades of the economy, a tumultuous publishing industry not marketing the book right, or just a lot of moochers hanging out for free stuff? I dunno...

[Permuted Press]

Shades of the economy, a tumultuous publishing industry not marketing the book right, or just a lot of moochers hanging out for free stuff? I dunno...

Or just missing that magic spark of luck and timing.

[JJMelzer]

Shades of the economy, a tumultuous publishing industry not marketing the book right, or just a lot of moochers hanging out for free stuff? I dunno...

Or just missing that magic spark of luck and timing.

Exactly. It's like I said in the podcast, the medium is so saturated now, that it's almost impossible to pull a Scott Sigler and grab that large following that will make it big for ya. When he did it, it was new and fresh and people jumped on board. Hutch came along at the same time, but yeah, maybe it just wasn't his time for it right now. *shrug*

[Permuted Press]

The whole thing with Hutch and St. Martin's is a good reminder that no matter how much of a sure thing something seems to be, nothing is guaranteed.

[JJMelzer]

The whole thing with Hutch and St. Martin's is a good reminder that no matter how much of a sure thing something seems to be, nothing is guaranteed.

Amen!

But hey, wasn't Peter's interview great?

 

[Permuted Press]

But hey, wasn't Peter's interview great?

Still listening to it and it's awesome!

[Lord Anubis]

You said something interesting there though, "large following of genuine fans." It's hard to tell what's genuine these days, and Hutch is a perfect example now. More than 5,000,000 downloads of his podcasts, more than 8,000 followers on Twitter and a ton of facebook fans, yet he still couldn't sell enough books from those people to satisfy St. Martin's Press into picking up his sequels.

Shades of the economy, a tumultuous publishing industry not marketing the book right, or just a lot of moochers hanging out for free stuff? I dunno...

Y'know, I think this is a key thing here.  I've long been against giving my work away for free, because once you do I think that's how you get tagged in the majority of people's minds.  You're the person who gives stuff away for free, so why should we pay for it now?

A good parallel would be the film industry.  The vast majority of the people in the film industry enter at a certain level and stay there for their entire career, no matter what.  I started out as a guy on B-level television shows and movies, and that's what I did for fifteen years.  Didn't matter how qualified I (or any of the very skilled people I was working with) was-- I was a B-level guy. Same holds for actors, directors, and so on.  How many B-level actors or actresses can you name that became A level?  Where you are in your first year or so pretty much determines where you are forever.

I'm not saying it's impossible, because we can all name a handful of people who've done it.  It's just like Hollywood, though.   All the people I know who bumped up to higher-level projects can be counted on one hand.  The odds drop so drastically, it's almost a miracle if you so it. 

[Permuted Press]

Stop the presses!  I have to issue a correction... I really did want to see someone write a good superhero/zombie crossover.  I was apprehensive when I received the full book from Pete about whether it would be genuinely good, not about whether I really wanted that type of book.  But it turned out to be not just good, but really good, and here we are.

I also have to say Pete is one of the very, very few authors that I've thrown ideas around with and he's actually delivered what we talked about (and done it well).  The vast majority of the time I brainstorm with someone, they go off and say they're going to do it, and I never hear about it again.  So well done, Pete.   

[Lord Anubis]

I stand humbled, corrected, and ashamed.

...but it is still a funny part of the story...

*edit* Actually, that's kind of a flip answer and it's not really fair to Jacob, the more I think about it.  I am really sorry I misinterpreted your expectations.  I won't do it again.

Y'know, assuming anyone else offers me a chance to babble on...