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[Bobbie]

I wouldn't want to gauge a nation or people by their State leadership; such an entity is too disintegrated to be an adequate reflection of even the majority of their citizenry.  Hell, if foreigners gauge Americans by State alone, we would be seen as extreme cases of borderline personality disorder.

Van

I wouldn't want to do this either.  My point is that it's reasonably easy--through the media, blogs, uprisings, liveleaks, etc--to see where certain populations stand in ref to their leaders and/or regimes.  I don't think this is necessarily true of Iran.
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You mean we aren't?

 

[Rob Pegler]

Hell, if foreigners gauge Americans by State alone, we would be seen as extreme cases of borderline personality disorder.

Yeah, thank god we've got all those movies, TV dramas, celebrity news reports and reality shows to give us a more accurate portrayal of you. 

[Bobbie]

Yeah, thank god we've got all those movies, TV dramas, celebrity news reports and reality shows to give us a more accurate portrayal of you.  

Rob, I may have to invade you.  Your tone CLEARLY indicates that you're harboring weapons of mass destruction.

[heavens2kadonka]

I wouldn't want to do this either.  My point is that it's reasonably easy--through the media, blogs, uprisings, liveleaks, etc--to see where certain populations stand in ref to their leaders and/or regimes.  I don't think this is necessarily true of Iran.

It isn't necessarily true of Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, either. 

(http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2011/11/20111121195944732930.html
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/12/04/132112/saudi-dissidents-turn-to-youtube.html)

What of al-Qaeda's involvement in Syria (with reports of their fighters coming across from Mosul, Iraq of all places)? Shouldn't it concern us that we are in some (or any) manner supporting their aims and goals?

(http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57376121/al-qaeda-urges-muslims-to-help-syria-rebels/)

One could easily construct a frightening narrative of western elites colluding with Sunni elites to take down their Shiite rivals for control of resources and power.  I personally lean towards this narrative, because I see the States involved as inherently-detached from the people (bringing it back to my first assertion).

 

Yeah, thank god we've got all those movies, TV dramas, celebrity news reports and reality shows to give us a more accurate portrayal of you. 

You also have our wonderful internet contributions and writings of the John Bolton-types to give a perfect portrayal of histrionic disorder.

Van

[Rob Pegler]

Rob, I may have to invade you.

I'll try not to make that sound dirty in my hea... oh, too late.

Your tone CLEARLY indicates that you're harboring weapons of mass destruction.

But you sold them to me when I was fighting the Soviets! I still have the invoice!

[Bobbie]

Van, if you look around you'll find that Saudi has divisions.  I'm not even thinking about terrorist groups, btw. Terrorism is a completly different discussion for another thread.  I'm simply wondering what kind of support the regime has within its boarders.  

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But you sold them to me when I was fighting the Soviets! I still have the invoice!

Makes no differnce!  Just curl up with your Bin Laden figurine and cower.

[heavens2kadonka]

Every nation has divisions, I agree.  I imagine the majority Sunni population of Syria would rather not have a Shiite minority running their life, but I think the issue of "support" at this point is moot: too many outside influences keeping the pot stirred to get adequate readings. 

Personally, I think that "terrorist" is a nebulous smear-tag that will not move any discussion forward.  Is it terrorism when the regime opens fire on dissidents, or when the dissidents kill security/soldiers and burn, loot buildings? I'd rather not qualify violence as more good or more evil.  Violence sucks, and people suck when they resort to it.  

Van

[Doug (Ancient) Wojtowicz]

Rob, I may have to invade you.  Your tone CLEARLY indicates that you're harboring weapons of mass destruction.

...

You can invade me.  I harbor WMDs...

Please? 

[Matthew]

I wouldn't want to do this either.  My point is that it's reasonably easy--through the media, blogs, uprisings, liveleaks, etc--to see where certain populations stand in ref to their leaders and/or regimes.  I don't think this is necessarily true of Iran.

Yeah, I think that's true of a lot of authoritarian regimes. When the government controls all media and has its own version of the truth that it is vested in promoting, it becomes tricky. You know that you can't trust what you see on the surface but it's almost impossible to know what you'll find if you probe deeper.

[Lord Anubis]

Just look at the recent power change in North Korea and how clamped-down it was, even down to editing the photos that went out to world news agencies.

I've read stories of the rare journalist who was allowed to go there and--assuming they could find someone who'd actually speak to them--discovered that most N.K. citizens think every other country is out to destroy them and believe their leader really is the only thing standing between them and death. 

[ChrisEPearson]

Oh yea, the culture in North Korea is pretty insane. They believe, I kid you not, that the reason golf is banned in their country is because Kim-Jung IL already played a perfect game, and getting a worse score than him would destroy the ecosystem.
And they think desk fans are out to kill them.

[Charles Phipps]

Just look at the recent power change in North Korea and how clamped-down it was, even down to editing the photos that went out to world news agencies.

I've read stories of the rare journalist who was allowed to go there and--assuming they could find someone who'd actually speak to them--discovered that most N.K. citizens think every other country is out to destroy them and believe their leader really is the only thing standing between them and death.  

Oh yeah, they tried to lynch a black Cuban ambassador showing his family the place. A few of the defectors even tried to defect BACK because they couldn't handle it, even knowing that it would mean torture and death. North Korea is worse than a lot of stereotypes of Soviet Russia in terms of how much control they had over the population and its mindset.

Iran is not as completely isolated as many dictatorships, wired or not. Were the dictatorship to fall or be reformed, it's not going to become a country of torch wielding peasants on a killing spree. This isn't defending Iran so much as saying that North Korea is more or less a single city with electricity (most of the country is in the dark) existing with a populace completely removed from the rest of the world.

Anyone who talks about North Korea and South Korea reunifying is really out of his mind, which is a problem because a lot of policy towards them was designed around that as an eventual goal.

[Bobbie]

So now Obama is stating that he won't do business with countries who get their oil from Iran.  One of these countries is China.  Does this mean we have to stop borrowing money from China?    I need someone to explain this to me.  We've run up a bill with China and now we're going to stop doing business with THEM.  It's fascinating to watch someone stand hard when the ball has clearly left his court.  Isn't this the equivalent of getting your drunk brother-in-law to stop camping out on your lawn, that lawn owner being China, the drunk brother-in-law being us?  Pick up any trinket in your house--bet the majority of them were made in China or in other countries that we're no longer going to do business with.  Does this mean (gasp) products of this caliber will have to be manufactured within our own borders, thereby creating the American jobs that we're so sorely lacking?  Quick somebody build a plastic bead factory!  

No, it couldn't be this simple . . .   Help me here?

[Thom Brannan]

so, i'm not reading this whole thread. i just wanted to say that when i saw the title, i thought it was more spam.

[zombiemutts]